US MILITARY ACTION IN IRAQ Y or N?
- MeatShield
by MeatShield » Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:53 pm
all right, all right... I slipped!!! I have been on such the defensive lately with this war crap that I feel like a cornered pit bull!! Seeing such stupidity here lately did not allow me to think that this was a protest to the protests.. don't you just love the country that we live in!!!
Thank you Doug, Xenius, bayotanzk, bukkake... (damn did I leave anyone out?).. for your promptness in setting me straight!...
I get it now... 
Thank you Doug, Xenius, bayotanzk, bukkake... (damn did I leave anyone out?).. for your promptness in setting me straight!...
I get it now... 
- Keekanoo
by Keekanoo » Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:46 pm
"As much as I disagree with Keekanoo (your "fellow Canuck"), I feel sorry for him that you would mention him in your post."
"This is why, while not agreeing with Keekanoo, I can have respect for him. He has an open mind and is willing to learn things that may change his opinion."
"Keekano, sorry, the similiar styles between your and Anton's first posts made me draw an invalid conclusion, my apologies. You are definately not as far out as Anton, not by a long shot. Anton, you show the exact opposite of this open-mindedness."
.....I slipped on the parapet, my good arm grappling to snag some hold, my eyes darting to the great maw of the gulf below. My foe advanced. I pushed myself out on the slim steel beam, my toes finding it's end, absurdly holding on to live even facing complete defeat. He advanced again, his sword, still held wearily, coming to within feet of my trembling form. I looked fevirishly around. There was no way out. I looked to the chasm below, wondered if I could hurl myself to death, stealing his victory. He approached another step. His sword rested now on my chin. I looked at him with clear defiance. Only my sword was beaten by his. I could never be beaten. I looked again below, and he spoke--just as I prepared to jump.
"Keekanoo. I am your father."
"This is why, while not agreeing with Keekanoo, I can have respect for him. He has an open mind and is willing to learn things that may change his opinion."
"Keekano, sorry, the similiar styles between your and Anton's first posts made me draw an invalid conclusion, my apologies. You are definately not as far out as Anton, not by a long shot. Anton, you show the exact opposite of this open-mindedness."
.....I slipped on the parapet, my good arm grappling to snag some hold, my eyes darting to the great maw of the gulf below. My foe advanced. I pushed myself out on the slim steel beam, my toes finding it's end, absurdly holding on to live even facing complete defeat. He advanced again, his sword, still held wearily, coming to within feet of my trembling form. I looked fevirishly around. There was no way out. I looked to the chasm below, wondered if I could hurl myself to death, stealing his victory. He approached another step. His sword rested now on my chin. I looked at him with clear defiance. Only my sword was beaten by his. I could never be beaten. I looked again below, and he spoke--just as I prepared to jump.
"Keekanoo. I am your father."
- Anton
by Anton » Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:54 pm
Hmm...reading over the replys I see that the natives are restless...
Let me begin with Doomfarer's disbelief re: the fact of the CIA having already come out and said, publicly, that there is no known connection between al Qaida and Iraq...
It was on CNN, CBS and just about every other major venue of
the 'free press'....The CIA director, George Tennet, was the one who made the statement(s)...The fact that you didn't see it....Well, that's your problem.
Apart from this, *no one* outside of the US (except, of course, for Brown Nose Blair) believes this blatant propaganda ploy.
Next.....A few souls have gotten all riled up because I made an (entirely apt) analogy between the present, imperialist, expansionist drive of the US with Nazi Germany's similar conquest of a string of helpless countries leading up to the 2nd World War...
Notice I said, "...between the....expansionist drive"....I did not make an analogy between the entirety of America to that of Nazi Germany, merely to their ruling elite's common strategic means and objectives. Present day domestic America clearly has many, and great differences with pre-war Germany ...
...(though I might add, the 'imperialist mindset' - which I've mentioned previously - and 'patriotic' fervour amongst a broad swath of the American public is certainly comparable. Just look at all those giant flags you guys fly outside of every hamburger joint and gas station....and then re-visit photos of the flag flying fever of pre-war Germany..)
Indeed, if you look back at *any* empire, be it the British Empire, the 3rd Reich, ancient Rome....or that of Alexander the Great etc,....they all cloaked their otherwise transparent grab for glory, resources, land - and now markets - in some pathetic idealogical justification. Moreover, the poor boobs who fought and died for these airy abstractions had virtually no real grasp on the fact that they were fighting not for their own interests, but for the interests of their *rulers* who became both fabulously wealthy because of them, and who never (execpt for Alexander) risked a hair on their cowardly, contemptible heads.
...Just think....An entire generation of young, European men gave their lives in the that great meat grinder we grace with the title of WW1 ...all for an illusion called 'patriotism'. For, of course, the real causes of the war were economic; it was essentially inter-imperialist rivalry....But who's going to die for ruling class interests if they properly understand that? No one. So it has to be all dressed up. It always has been. It is now.
To put it bluntly, you guys are being played like fiddles; like marrionets.
Another possiblity does exist, of course. That's to wake-up. Cut the strings. It's hard, naturally, especially when you've believed in a fairy tale all your life. It takes insight, and courage....but then, you're not children any more.
Let me now respond to Col Bukkake who 'rebutted' my analysis of the 'numbers game' w.r.t the first Gulf War. The colonel apparently thinks it's okay to kill as many of the enemy as possible, 'cause, "Isn't that the point?"
Well, no Col. Bukkake, it's not.
Not when you've provoked the conflict in the first place*; not when the 'enemy' is almost entirely defenseless; not when you purposely destroy the entire infrastructure of a country leading to the eventual deaths of a further million-and-a-half
(UN and Red Cross figures - for all of you expediantly doubting Thomas's) people who never did a damn thing to you or any of your kin.
(* Just a note here. I will respond at a later time to the issue of what really 'went down' in the lead up to Iraq invading Kuwait in 1990....for thereby hangs a most fascinating tale)
I should also briefly address Bukkake's '2 million Cambodian' figure.
Quite apart from the fact that exactly contemporaneous with the 'killing fields' in Cambodia (1975 - 1979), *another* killing fields took place in East Timor inwhich roughly 200,000 Timorese were slaughtered by US backed Indonesian Forces (all armed by the US. Indeed, Gerald Ford and Henry Kissinger met in Jakarta with Suharto (the Indonesian leader) *the day before the invasion* (clearly giving the 'okay').....
...Quite apart from this (and the 'failure' of the 'free press' to report it - until 25 years later) the 2 million figure has been authoritatively debunked in dozens of venues.
The real story is that nearing the end of the Vietnam war, the US air force bombed the hell out of Cambodia in an attempt to destroy North Vietnamese forces seeking refuge there. Now, no one asked the Cambodian peasants about this (their country was not at war...most of them had barely even seen a plane before) but they were carpet bombed nonetheless....Conservative estimates are that 600,000 were killed in what the press later called, 'the Secret Bombing of Cambodia'.....600,000....The bombing amounted to more than the entire ordnance dropped during WWII....The economic infrastructure (farming) was virtually wiped out. UN aid officials estimated in 1979 that, following the withdrawal of US forces, at least *1,000,000* could be expected to starve to death.
Meanwhile, back in the jungle, their parents (and most moderate politicos) having been killed during the bombing, the largest teen-age gang in the world descended in a mad rage upon the urban centres (i.e. Phnom Penh) and wreaked revenge upon what they (somewhat correctly) considered to be the treasonous and complicit urban elite.
They didn't kill 2 million however. That figure came from one source (an Italian journalist, who got it from one Khmer Rouge offical) and was later *retracted*. The retraction didn't suit the propganda ...sorry, I mean the free....press fairy tale at the time - or now - and so has been repeated mindlessly ever since. The real figure is more lilkely in the 300,000 to 400,000 range (admittedly, still mind-bogglinglly tragic), with the bombing and famine victims having been simply tacked on to the Khmer Rouge scorecard for good measure...And, naturally, the US role in this affair (almost) completely excised from the historical record (which, as you well know, the 'victors' write).
Which brings me to the last point I intend to reply to tonight.
The numbers game.
I believe it was 'Rule of Wrist' who said something like, "...none of these arguments should be about numbers or statistics.."
Well, just tell that to yourself if you think that it dosen't matter whether the figure for the Amerian death toll in Vietnam was 58,000 or 5,800 or 580 (We won't get into the fact that 3,000,000 or so Vietnamese were killed...all to save them from themselves of course).
Or go tell it to the Israelis if you think it doesn't matter whether 6,000,000 or say 2,000,000 were killed....Well, we know, at least, how *they'd* reply...They'd go apeshit.
In point of fact, numbers *do* matter both because every life matters and because the numbers have a very strategic political relevance.
Now it's true that the tactical manipulation of counts and the strategic manipulation of established figures are often conflated (i.e. numbers in the immediate aftermath of a conflict are often inflated by one side and deflated by the other - 'tactical manipulation'; and well established figures are ignored or purposely discounted in the historical record, again for propaganda purposes - 'strategic manipulation'), but that in no way relieves us of the responsibility to attempt to come to grips with the actual numbers.
Finally, as for Bayotanzk's statement to the effect that the US is the 'best system in the world'.....I can only say, God help the world. As for America, go tell that to the over 50% of your prison population who are Blacks...and who make up only 12% of the national population....
.....Oooh....I may have opened up...why yes...another can of worms.
Anton
Let me begin with Doomfarer's disbelief re: the fact of the CIA having already come out and said, publicly, that there is no known connection between al Qaida and Iraq...
It was on CNN, CBS and just about every other major venue of
the 'free press'....The CIA director, George Tennet, was the one who made the statement(s)...The fact that you didn't see it....Well, that's your problem.
Apart from this, *no one* outside of the US (except, of course, for Brown Nose Blair) believes this blatant propaganda ploy.
Next.....A few souls have gotten all riled up because I made an (entirely apt) analogy between the present, imperialist, expansionist drive of the US with Nazi Germany's similar conquest of a string of helpless countries leading up to the 2nd World War...
Notice I said, "...between the....expansionist drive"....I did not make an analogy between the entirety of America to that of Nazi Germany, merely to their ruling elite's common strategic means and objectives. Present day domestic America clearly has many, and great differences with pre-war Germany ...
...(though I might add, the 'imperialist mindset' - which I've mentioned previously - and 'patriotic' fervour amongst a broad swath of the American public is certainly comparable. Just look at all those giant flags you guys fly outside of every hamburger joint and gas station....and then re-visit photos of the flag flying fever of pre-war Germany..)
Indeed, if you look back at *any* empire, be it the British Empire, the 3rd Reich, ancient Rome....or that of Alexander the Great etc,....they all cloaked their otherwise transparent grab for glory, resources, land - and now markets - in some pathetic idealogical justification. Moreover, the poor boobs who fought and died for these airy abstractions had virtually no real grasp on the fact that they were fighting not for their own interests, but for the interests of their *rulers* who became both fabulously wealthy because of them, and who never (execpt for Alexander) risked a hair on their cowardly, contemptible heads.
...Just think....An entire generation of young, European men gave their lives in the that great meat grinder we grace with the title of WW1 ...all for an illusion called 'patriotism'. For, of course, the real causes of the war were economic; it was essentially inter-imperialist rivalry....But who's going to die for ruling class interests if they properly understand that? No one. So it has to be all dressed up. It always has been. It is now.
To put it bluntly, you guys are being played like fiddles; like marrionets.
Another possiblity does exist, of course. That's to wake-up. Cut the strings. It's hard, naturally, especially when you've believed in a fairy tale all your life. It takes insight, and courage....but then, you're not children any more.
Let me now respond to Col Bukkake who 'rebutted' my analysis of the 'numbers game' w.r.t the first Gulf War. The colonel apparently thinks it's okay to kill as many of the enemy as possible, 'cause, "Isn't that the point?"
Well, no Col. Bukkake, it's not.
Not when you've provoked the conflict in the first place*; not when the 'enemy' is almost entirely defenseless; not when you purposely destroy the entire infrastructure of a country leading to the eventual deaths of a further million-and-a-half
(UN and Red Cross figures - for all of you expediantly doubting Thomas's) people who never did a damn thing to you or any of your kin.
(* Just a note here. I will respond at a later time to the issue of what really 'went down' in the lead up to Iraq invading Kuwait in 1990....for thereby hangs a most fascinating tale)
I should also briefly address Bukkake's '2 million Cambodian' figure.
Quite apart from the fact that exactly contemporaneous with the 'killing fields' in Cambodia (1975 - 1979), *another* killing fields took place in East Timor inwhich roughly 200,000 Timorese were slaughtered by US backed Indonesian Forces (all armed by the US. Indeed, Gerald Ford and Henry Kissinger met in Jakarta with Suharto (the Indonesian leader) *the day before the invasion* (clearly giving the 'okay').....
...Quite apart from this (and the 'failure' of the 'free press' to report it - until 25 years later) the 2 million figure has been authoritatively debunked in dozens of venues.
The real story is that nearing the end of the Vietnam war, the US air force bombed the hell out of Cambodia in an attempt to destroy North Vietnamese forces seeking refuge there. Now, no one asked the Cambodian peasants about this (their country was not at war...most of them had barely even seen a plane before) but they were carpet bombed nonetheless....Conservative estimates are that 600,000 were killed in what the press later called, 'the Secret Bombing of Cambodia'.....600,000....The bombing amounted to more than the entire ordnance dropped during WWII....The economic infrastructure (farming) was virtually wiped out. UN aid officials estimated in 1979 that, following the withdrawal of US forces, at least *1,000,000* could be expected to starve to death.
Meanwhile, back in the jungle, their parents (and most moderate politicos) having been killed during the bombing, the largest teen-age gang in the world descended in a mad rage upon the urban centres (i.e. Phnom Penh) and wreaked revenge upon what they (somewhat correctly) considered to be the treasonous and complicit urban elite.
They didn't kill 2 million however. That figure came from one source (an Italian journalist, who got it from one Khmer Rouge offical) and was later *retracted*. The retraction didn't suit the propganda ...sorry, I mean the free....press fairy tale at the time - or now - and so has been repeated mindlessly ever since. The real figure is more lilkely in the 300,000 to 400,000 range (admittedly, still mind-bogglinglly tragic), with the bombing and famine victims having been simply tacked on to the Khmer Rouge scorecard for good measure...And, naturally, the US role in this affair (almost) completely excised from the historical record (which, as you well know, the 'victors' write).
Which brings me to the last point I intend to reply to tonight.
The numbers game.
I believe it was 'Rule of Wrist' who said something like, "...none of these arguments should be about numbers or statistics.."
Well, just tell that to yourself if you think that it dosen't matter whether the figure for the Amerian death toll in Vietnam was 58,000 or 5,800 or 580 (We won't get into the fact that 3,000,000 or so Vietnamese were killed...all to save them from themselves of course).
Or go tell it to the Israelis if you think it doesn't matter whether 6,000,000 or say 2,000,000 were killed....Well, we know, at least, how *they'd* reply...They'd go apeshit.
In point of fact, numbers *do* matter both because every life matters and because the numbers have a very strategic political relevance.
Now it's true that the tactical manipulation of counts and the strategic manipulation of established figures are often conflated (i.e. numbers in the immediate aftermath of a conflict are often inflated by one side and deflated by the other - 'tactical manipulation'; and well established figures are ignored or purposely discounted in the historical record, again for propaganda purposes - 'strategic manipulation'), but that in no way relieves us of the responsibility to attempt to come to grips with the actual numbers.
Finally, as for Bayotanzk's statement to the effect that the US is the 'best system in the world'.....I can only say, God help the world. As for America, go tell that to the over 50% of your prison population who are Blacks...and who make up only 12% of the national population....
.....Oooh....I may have opened up...why yes...another can of worms.
Anton
- FarginMofo
-
- Posts: 799
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- Location: Hurricaneville
by FarginMofo » Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:10 pm
Mental note: Next time I visit Europe, shake hand of owner and buy pizza. 
"Well, we're not just gonna let you walk out of here."
"Who's we sucka!?"
"Smith and Wesson and me."
"Who's we sucka!?"
"Smith and Wesson and me."
- Anton
by Anton » Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:30 pm
Col Bukkake
I can see you read my little narrative with malice aforethought....
No. I am not a fan of Pol Pot....but apparently the US government *was*... for years *following* the 'killing fields'. They gave them both logistical support (against the Vietnamese, who did everyone a good turn by finally marching in and putting an end to the slaughter)and diplomatic validation (they actually supported the Khmer Rouge government's seat at the UN).
As for 'anti-semite'....I don't know where you got that from....
But just to keep the record clear....*I* don't dispute the six million holocaust figure...and I only used the Israelis as an example because everyone can immediately identlfy with how emotionally distraught they would be (and are, whenever it occurs in relation to holocaust deniers) if someone *were* to dispute those figures.
(This is not to say, however, the entire fixation of the Western mindset (actually, press) on the 'holocaust' doesn't serve very powerful propganda purposes....It most certainly does. It diverts, for instance, attention from the crimes that 'we' are committing precisely now.(i.e Central and Latin America etc.).
..And finally, do I 'hate war'?
The question is, do you love it?
I can see you read my little narrative with malice aforethought....
No. I am not a fan of Pol Pot....but apparently the US government *was*... for years *following* the 'killing fields'. They gave them both logistical support (against the Vietnamese, who did everyone a good turn by finally marching in and putting an end to the slaughter)and diplomatic validation (they actually supported the Khmer Rouge government's seat at the UN).
As for 'anti-semite'....I don't know where you got that from....
But just to keep the record clear....*I* don't dispute the six million holocaust figure...and I only used the Israelis as an example because everyone can immediately identlfy with how emotionally distraught they would be (and are, whenever it occurs in relation to holocaust deniers) if someone *were* to dispute those figures.
(This is not to say, however, the entire fixation of the Western mindset (actually, press) on the 'holocaust' doesn't serve very powerful propganda purposes....It most certainly does. It diverts, for instance, attention from the crimes that 'we' are committing precisely now.(i.e Central and Latin America etc.).
..And finally, do I 'hate war'?
The question is, do you love it?
- COL.BUKKAKE
by COL.BUKKAKE » Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:45 pm
Originally posted by Anton
Col Bukkake
..And finally, do I 'hate war'?
The question is, do you love it?
I'm sorry I deleted the rest of your post, this is the only section I'm going to respond to,
To be perfectly honest with you, I would love to see the whole Middle East turned into a parking lot. I have my reasons, which I will not share. Which you probably would not understand.
It would be a great thing if we could all live on this Earth peacefully, but sadly its a pipe dream. I'm afraid, my attitude will never change.
by bayotanzk » Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:00 am
Anton,
The United States is the greatest country in the world. My opinion and yours may differ, but I fail to see where prison population (something handled by our justice dept) has anything to do with the current problem in Iraq and this post. If you want to run that far off subject, start another post about our current penal system in the United States.
I am not in prison nor are any of my buddies or relatives, heck my father is a retired police officer. Though I am sure if the populations in our prison system (white, black, green or blue makes no difference) was lower, we could spend the extra tax dollars on some more bombs to drop on Iraq. The only real way I will respond to this is simply: "do the crime and be prepared to do the time"or "don't do the crime if you can"t do the time"
Sort of leads into this one. Should any country threaten the US in any way, meaning provide sanctuary, miltary training, funding, or weapons of any kind to terrorists that undermine MY WAY OF LIFE- I say meet the boys and girls of the US Armed Forces. Sit back. Take a load off Anton. Watch in amazement!!!!!!! It wont last long.
The United States is the greatest country in the world. My opinion and yours may differ, but I fail to see where prison population (something handled by our justice dept) has anything to do with the current problem in Iraq and this post. If you want to run that far off subject, start another post about our current penal system in the United States.
I am not in prison nor are any of my buddies or relatives, heck my father is a retired police officer. Though I am sure if the populations in our prison system (white, black, green or blue makes no difference) was lower, we could spend the extra tax dollars on some more bombs to drop on Iraq. The only real way I will respond to this is simply: "do the crime and be prepared to do the time"or "don't do the crime if you can"t do the time"
Sort of leads into this one. Should any country threaten the US in any way, meaning provide sanctuary, miltary training, funding, or weapons of any kind to terrorists that undermine MY WAY OF LIFE- I say meet the boys and girls of the US Armed Forces. Sit back. Take a load off Anton. Watch in amazement!!!!!!! It wont last long.
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