US MILITARY ACTION IN IRAQ Y or N?
- Keekanoo
by Keekanoo » Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:11 am
In response to what Meat Shield posted last page, visa-vis the (alleged) American pilot waiting for the 'hammer to drop'.
I'm not going to bother pressing the point that any spin-doctor can make something up and pump it out. Clearly that argument is lost on some here. You want to believe. You HAVE to believe. You'd be so frightened of the possibilities that it ISN'T true that you've got no room left to maneuvre.
Now, I know I'm wrong. Clearly I'm deranged. No succinct arguments. No clear defined ideas or examples. Just tangential rambling. But humor me. Just play along with this simpleton. It makes me happy. Pretend your petting a dog.
What if all you tough guys are....wrong? Now I know. Clearly I'm being naive. Rash. Foolish as only a barely 1st-world country guy can be. But humor me. Pretend for a moment that 90% of the hype you've believed is twisted fact.
It can't be. Why? Not because that would mean 'THEY' have been lying to you. No. Not at all. What the true ingenious, hienous bit here is is that YOU would be lying to you. And we can't have that. None of us can. It's easier to drop bombs anonymously from 10,000 feet then it would be to look in the mirror and know your lying to yourself. A lot easier.
*sigh* I really didn't want to re-hash that point. My appologies.
The (alleged) pilot said something like....the U.N. weapons inspectors have been searching for NINE years to find something. They havn't found anything.
Why?
Well, clearly because Saddam is one of the most brilliant clairavoyants ever to have graced this planet. Not only is he able to decieve the inspectors, but he can hide from the satelites, spy planes, drones, long-range sensors, hidden sensors, spies, agents and any other manner of MANY possibilities.
It's clear what we need to do. We need to go down to the Smithsonian, drag out the fragments of Einsteins brain and throw them away. Why? Well, because clealry Saddam is the most brilliant human that has ever lived. We need to keep his brain there for all eternity. Set up a little shrine around it. We can kneel and worship such a divinely-inspired near immortal.
But that's for only one side of the skeptics. Visa-vis the ones who believes he's capable of hiding things. Now the OTHER side, which our (alleged) pilot cunningly points out is this: Intelligence sources can't reveal what they know for fear of disrupting their intelligence network. We need to take their word for it.
Did you get that everyone? No?
Allow me to repeat.
Here's the argument: We know there's stuff there but we can't tell you where it is and what it is because that would give away how we got the information. You'll just need to trust us.
Was that clear? No? Ok, lets go over it again--and sit up in the back row and stop carving your initials into the desk. You'll be allowed to get all the tatoos of biting-cobras on your for-head you want later.
Here it is again. We can't tell you what we know. But we know it. Trust us.
Trust us.
Trust us.
Trust us.
Ok....was that clear? Probably not. Probably none here will go, 'Gee Keek, that's a reasonable argument. I'm kind of pissed I didn't see it.'
No. Someone will say something quasi-insightful (cue anyone of several here) like "Hey man, we pay those guys top bucks to put their lives on the line. If he believes it, it's good enough for me." And someone else (cue any of several others) will high-five him for conjuring up a devestating counter-argument and supporting the proud American way.
American's the coolest because it has the biggest best weapons. That'a like a 12 yr old Nintendo-player credo.
And someone said a long while back that the States has very accurate targeting. Tell that to the Chinese Embassy people who were taken out in Bosnia by the (allegedly) errant Tomahawk missile. Remember that incident? Dam that bomb worked real good. That was a strong building. Took out 3 floors of it. Course...maybe it didn't malfunction. Ooooo..but lets not tax this quagmire with too much controversy.
I'm not going to bother pressing the point that any spin-doctor can make something up and pump it out. Clearly that argument is lost on some here. You want to believe. You HAVE to believe. You'd be so frightened of the possibilities that it ISN'T true that you've got no room left to maneuvre.
Now, I know I'm wrong. Clearly I'm deranged. No succinct arguments. No clear defined ideas or examples. Just tangential rambling. But humor me. Just play along with this simpleton. It makes me happy. Pretend your petting a dog.
What if all you tough guys are....wrong? Now I know. Clearly I'm being naive. Rash. Foolish as only a barely 1st-world country guy can be. But humor me. Pretend for a moment that 90% of the hype you've believed is twisted fact.
It can't be. Why? Not because that would mean 'THEY' have been lying to you. No. Not at all. What the true ingenious, hienous bit here is is that YOU would be lying to you. And we can't have that. None of us can. It's easier to drop bombs anonymously from 10,000 feet then it would be to look in the mirror and know your lying to yourself. A lot easier.
*sigh* I really didn't want to re-hash that point. My appologies.
The (alleged) pilot said something like....the U.N. weapons inspectors have been searching for NINE years to find something. They havn't found anything.
Why?
Well, clearly because Saddam is one of the most brilliant clairavoyants ever to have graced this planet. Not only is he able to decieve the inspectors, but he can hide from the satelites, spy planes, drones, long-range sensors, hidden sensors, spies, agents and any other manner of MANY possibilities.
It's clear what we need to do. We need to go down to the Smithsonian, drag out the fragments of Einsteins brain and throw them away. Why? Well, because clealry Saddam is the most brilliant human that has ever lived. We need to keep his brain there for all eternity. Set up a little shrine around it. We can kneel and worship such a divinely-inspired near immortal.
But that's for only one side of the skeptics. Visa-vis the ones who believes he's capable of hiding things. Now the OTHER side, which our (alleged) pilot cunningly points out is this: Intelligence sources can't reveal what they know for fear of disrupting their intelligence network. We need to take their word for it.
Did you get that everyone? No?
Allow me to repeat.
Here's the argument: We know there's stuff there but we can't tell you where it is and what it is because that would give away how we got the information. You'll just need to trust us.
Was that clear? No? Ok, lets go over it again--and sit up in the back row and stop carving your initials into the desk. You'll be allowed to get all the tatoos of biting-cobras on your for-head you want later.
Here it is again. We can't tell you what we know. But we know it. Trust us.
Trust us.
Trust us.
Trust us.
Ok....was that clear? Probably not. Probably none here will go, 'Gee Keek, that's a reasonable argument. I'm kind of pissed I didn't see it.'
No. Someone will say something quasi-insightful (cue anyone of several here) like "Hey man, we pay those guys top bucks to put their lives on the line. If he believes it, it's good enough for me." And someone else (cue any of several others) will high-five him for conjuring up a devestating counter-argument and supporting the proud American way.
American's the coolest because it has the biggest best weapons. That'a like a 12 yr old Nintendo-player credo.
And someone said a long while back that the States has very accurate targeting. Tell that to the Chinese Embassy people who were taken out in Bosnia by the (allegedly) errant Tomahawk missile. Remember that incident? Dam that bomb worked real good. That was a strong building. Took out 3 floors of it. Course...maybe it didn't malfunction. Ooooo..but lets not tax this quagmire with too much controversy.
by bayotanzk » Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:12 am
Farginmofo, Check this out S&W introduced the most powerful production handgun 50 cal magnum
check it out
http://www.smith-wesson.com/Products/Firearms/m500.htm
check it out
http://www.smith-wesson.com/Products/Firearms/m500.htm
486 dx 50 -32 megs ram -8 meg vid card -120 meg HD -14"vga monitor, dos 5.0
- MeatShield
by MeatShield » Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:21 am
Ok, lets for one minute say that we could push a button and the US never existed, or at least started playing "a Canadian role"... So then I would assume that the world would be a perfect place to live??? I really do wish the US wasn't the world's watchdogs.. that would be terrific.. but a question...
does *no one* only include France and Germany??? Allow me to re-insert a quote from an earlier post of mine..
and not to mention the news that had come out today, mentioning the finding of 2 rockets, 1 with chemical residue... that the Irai government simply says "here, we know about these 2, but that is it!!! We promise!!"... Didn't they promise about a month ago in massive amounts of documents explaining how they have no weapons... uh yeah... ok..
and Anton, why didn't you go with your buddies to Iraq to become a meatshield... (whoops..scratch that;) ) I mean a human shield with your other "life is great, Saddam is our friend" buddies?? Saddam will love using these freaks for protection.. just like he does his own schools and hospitals that he also uses for military barracks.
Apart from this, *no one* outside of the US (except, of course, for Brown Nose Blair) believes this blatant propaganda ploy.
does *no one* only include France and Germany??? Allow me to re-insert a quote from an earlier post of mine..
In case anyone hasn't noticed, France and Germany are the only allies NOT on board. The rest of NATO IS on board. The rest of Europe IS on board. Australia IS on board. Poland, the Czech Republic, Egypt, Bulgaria, Latvia, the Netherlands are ALL on board. Over FORTY COUNTRIES have offered military assistance of some sort. Even Jordan, an ally of Iraq, has offered assistance.
and not to mention the news that had come out today, mentioning the finding of 2 rockets, 1 with chemical residue... that the Irai government simply says "here, we know about these 2, but that is it!!! We promise!!"... Didn't they promise about a month ago in massive amounts of documents explaining how they have no weapons... uh yeah... ok..
and Anton, why didn't you go with your buddies to Iraq to become a meatshield... (whoops..scratch that;) ) I mean a human shield with your other "life is great, Saddam is our friend" buddies?? Saddam will love using these freaks for protection.. just like he does his own schools and hospitals that he also uses for military barracks.
- MeatShield
by MeatShield » Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:38 am
OMG..... Wow!! Keekanoo... you know.. I think it made sense the 4th time around.. hmmm, that trust thing.. yeah.. HEY EVERYBODY!!! Keekanoo is right... don't beleive the government!!! And for that matter anything that comes out of media either, because we all know that they are also controlled by the government as well. Hey Keekanoo, are you religious?? Because I was until I read your last post!!! I can't seem to beleive that either! What, a simple book to rule my judgement?!? I guess that I will just sit here and wait for the little green men to come out of the sky and say that everything is going to be all right. 
Oh, and by the way.. I will write President Bush tomorrow and tell him not to bother with N. Korea.. we will just let Canada take care of that one.
Oh, and by the way.. I will write President Bush tomorrow and tell him not to bother with N. Korea.. we will just let Canada take care of that one.
- FarginMofo
-
- Posts: 799
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 10:11 pm
- Location: Hurricaneville
by FarginMofo » Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:51 am
bayotanzk,
Yeah, I spotted an article on that a couple of weeks back. The kick back on that thing must be a bitch but it sure does look sweet. Could probably use it to take out a panzer or 2 in bf1942.
Yeah, I spotted an article on that a couple of weeks back. The kick back on that thing must be a bitch but it sure does look sweet. Could probably use it to take out a panzer or 2 in bf1942.
"Well, we're not just gonna let you walk out of here."
"Who's we sucka!?"
"Smith and Wesson and me."
"Who's we sucka!?"
"Smith and Wesson and me."
- FarginMofo
-
- Posts: 799
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 10:11 pm
- Location: Hurricaneville
by FarginMofo » Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:54 am
Speaking of N. Korea, I spotted this interesting photo of their leader yesterday in an article on CNN. This photo alone tells me everything I need to know about this guy.
I wonder who has the bigger ego, Kim or Saddam?
I wonder who has the bigger ego, Kim or Saddam?
"Well, we're not just gonna let you walk out of here."
"Who's we sucka!?"
"Smith and Wesson and me."
"Who's we sucka!?"
"Smith and Wesson and me."
- Rule of Wrist
by Rule of Wrist » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:14 am
Keekanoo, like any good debater, you take the initiative and only choose to respond to items that may further your point. As far as trusting the government I agree, mostly. In my view, US international policy should be closer to what it was before the US civil war; trading partner to the world, not its policeman. But that Rubicon was crossed in the First World War.
Now the US and world economies are intertwined to such a degree that if we backed out of our various economic and military commitments, the rest of the world would be set back in unmeasurable ways. The repercussions from such a move would last for decades. During this time there would be much world instability, and it is possible that some lunatic that didn't care if he destroyed himself and the world would launch or detonate a nuclear device in some tender spot. In a time of such instability, this would eventually lead to a massive nuclear exchange. Ending all life on this planet for everything more complex than a cockroach. I assume that you believe that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not faked? So nuclear weapons are real? I think so.
While this scenario is farfetched, it is in the realm of possibility. Regardless, the US gov. will not back out of world affairs. The only way that will happen is if the US economy fails completely or we are conquered militarily in the future. This is in the disinterest of all of the US citizens that derive benefit from the current system. This means everyone who has their own business, everyone who is gainfully employed, everyone who works for the government, and everyone on welfare. Even the vast majority of uneducated, mouth-breathing, slope-headed americans today realize this, hence the flag waving.
As far as this debate not being about numbers, well I can dismiss all of Anton's arguments with Keekanoo's argument. We have no way of knowing whether the numbers you spout are true or untrue. Sources may always be questioned. So, your arguments to this point are utterly meaningless.
(Keekanoo, was that one post awhile back derived from a Star Wars book?? If it was, you are definitely a diehard geek. Can't wait for Ep. III...)
Now the US and world economies are intertwined to such a degree that if we backed out of our various economic and military commitments, the rest of the world would be set back in unmeasurable ways. The repercussions from such a move would last for decades. During this time there would be much world instability, and it is possible that some lunatic that didn't care if he destroyed himself and the world would launch or detonate a nuclear device in some tender spot. In a time of such instability, this would eventually lead to a massive nuclear exchange. Ending all life on this planet for everything more complex than a cockroach. I assume that you believe that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not faked? So nuclear weapons are real? I think so.
While this scenario is farfetched, it is in the realm of possibility. Regardless, the US gov. will not back out of world affairs. The only way that will happen is if the US economy fails completely or we are conquered militarily in the future. This is in the disinterest of all of the US citizens that derive benefit from the current system. This means everyone who has their own business, everyone who is gainfully employed, everyone who works for the government, and everyone on welfare. Even the vast majority of uneducated, mouth-breathing, slope-headed americans today realize this, hence the flag waving.
As far as this debate not being about numbers, well I can dismiss all of Anton's arguments with Keekanoo's argument. We have no way of knowing whether the numbers you spout are true or untrue. Sources may always be questioned. So, your arguments to this point are utterly meaningless.
(Keekanoo, was that one post awhile back derived from a Star Wars book?? If it was, you are definitely a diehard geek. Can't wait for Ep. III...)
- Ralph Wiggum
by Ralph Wiggum » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:18 am
Interesting article from last year on the differences between European and American attitudes regarding the use of military force. The author has recently written a full-length book on the subject for anyone interested.
http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html
Bayo, the gun is interesting, but I'm not a big S&W fan. They nearly sold the entire U.S. gun industry down the river a couple of years ago by making a separate peace with some anti-gun lawyers.
http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html
Bayo, the gun is interesting, but I'm not a big S&W fan. They nearly sold the entire U.S. gun industry down the river a couple of years ago by making a separate peace with some anti-gun lawyers.
- {CN}Doomfarer
by {CN}Doomfarer » Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:51 am
Hehe, once more my impatience with TV bites me in the ass. I actually did miss the whole "CIA thing". I will retract the crap I shot out there. I won't retract the last part of my post though.
The war with Iraq will probably happen. More than likely with additional agendas that most of us are unaware of. Man is an agressive species for the most part. War WILL happen. We tried staying out of wars before, we all KNOW how that went over. You're welcome Europe. We have also been in wars on our own that went, at best, poorly. We have (hopefully) learned a couple of things from all of that crap. I am sure you can supply them on your own, and more than likely do so in a fucking huge post that has no GODDAMNED BREAKS in it.
I support my government (an exception) in this action against Iraq. This has nothing to do with the media or Gov. PR (as you can tell I avoid most media BS), and everything to do with what I personally value. I have no desire to see a large scale war in my lifetime. Most of the world feels the same way. I feel it is better to be aggressive in taking action against those who threaten peace, than hold back too long and watch as that peace we all value come crashing down on a larger scale.
Do you honestly think the UN would STILL be sending people into Iraq if they truly felt that there was nothing there? Saddam exercises almost total control over the wheres, whens, and locations that the inspectors have visited/people they talk to. No need for super powers of any sort. Just total ruthlessness in action.
Point to the bones in the USA's closet if you wish. While you are at it, point out the ruins in NY. Call our actions in the Middle East what you want, but realize we have done NOTHING to compare Sept. 11th. Last I looked there were no terrorist groups or countries supporting them aiding us in ANY way. Yet we are the bad guys for going into Afghanistan, clearing out the kind of people who pray for our destruction daily, and then staying there to aid the civilian population afterwards? We are bad guys for insisting on action against a KNOWN prick with the kind of toys that most of the civilized world abhors (yes I know we have that shit too), AND the damned near compulsion to use it (guess what, we don't)?
Insist on declaiming our ignorance and pointing to unseen hands behind the curtain all you wish. There are things still happening on the stage that are very real.
The war with Iraq will probably happen. More than likely with additional agendas that most of us are unaware of. Man is an agressive species for the most part. War WILL happen. We tried staying out of wars before, we all KNOW how that went over. You're welcome Europe. We have also been in wars on our own that went, at best, poorly. We have (hopefully) learned a couple of things from all of that crap. I am sure you can supply them on your own, and more than likely do so in a fucking huge post that has no GODDAMNED BREAKS in it.
I support my government (an exception) in this action against Iraq. This has nothing to do with the media or Gov. PR (as you can tell I avoid most media BS), and everything to do with what I personally value. I have no desire to see a large scale war in my lifetime. Most of the world feels the same way. I feel it is better to be aggressive in taking action against those who threaten peace, than hold back too long and watch as that peace we all value come crashing down on a larger scale.
Do you honestly think the UN would STILL be sending people into Iraq if they truly felt that there was nothing there? Saddam exercises almost total control over the wheres, whens, and locations that the inspectors have visited/people they talk to. No need for super powers of any sort. Just total ruthlessness in action.
Point to the bones in the USA's closet if you wish. While you are at it, point out the ruins in NY. Call our actions in the Middle East what you want, but realize we have done NOTHING to compare Sept. 11th. Last I looked there were no terrorist groups or countries supporting them aiding us in ANY way. Yet we are the bad guys for going into Afghanistan, clearing out the kind of people who pray for our destruction daily, and then staying there to aid the civilian population afterwards? We are bad guys for insisting on action against a KNOWN prick with the kind of toys that most of the civilized world abhors (yes I know we have that shit too), AND the damned near compulsion to use it (guess what, we don't)?
Insist on declaiming our ignorance and pointing to unseen hands behind the curtain all you wish. There are things still happening on the stage that are very real.
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