Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:30 pm
GDP is a measure of production, not sales. If I remember my economics class's drilling into my head...
GDP is the final value of all goods and services produced within a given time frame.
and I think that's actually the definition verbatim. Probably why I got an "A" in that class..
But your observations are correct. We are not in a recession, and the unemployment indicators are not incredibly accurate -first of all they're lagged, secondly they're not accurate as they only track the people actively searching for employment.
I don't think we are in economic "hard times", for sure, but companies are certainly downsizing - which (guess what) leads to more profitable corporations and a lower cost of living (because they can afford to charge less for their goods and services).
Job exportation = good for the economy, bad for the people laid off.
GDP is the final value of all goods and services produced within a given time frame.
and I think that's actually the definition verbatim. Probably why I got an "A" in that class..
But your observations are correct. We are not in a recession, and the unemployment indicators are not incredibly accurate -first of all they're lagged, secondly they're not accurate as they only track the people actively searching for employment.
I don't think we are in economic "hard times", for sure, but companies are certainly downsizing - which (guess what) leads to more profitable corporations and a lower cost of living (because they can afford to charge less for their goods and services).
Job exportation = good for the economy, bad for the people laid off.
Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:42 pm
Ford paid his workers $5 a DAY in 1914, not per hour. Still a high wage. He was the first to pay $1/hour later on. Autoworkers were making about $5/hour in late 60's or thereabouts as my brother-in-law recalls.
Ford didn't pay his workers in order to expand his industrial base, that's ludicrous. A company can't be supported by buying their own products!! He tried to keep them happy, but in 1941 they unionized. Happy workers don't unionize it is said. Let's not even get into the whole union thing. All I'll say is it's pretty bad when a line worker at GM makes more money than a doctor out of med school.
Mistake on the hour I meant day.
And I didn't say he did it to expand his industrial base. He did it because his workers would not be able to buy his product if he did not. The unintended side effects was it DID expand his industrial base.
Try to think of it like this. If Najihapor in New Dehli, with his 10,000 grand a year salary, buys a Kia to drive around in how does that benifit the American economy in any way?
That 10,000 grand a year would have been 60,000 to 100,000 grand here. Would the American making that money be buying a Ford or Chevy? Maybe not, maybe he wants a BMW. But he is going to paying a mortgage, buying gas, buying groceries, getting his luxury goods and beer here.
Does the company realize a windfall by not paying that extra 50-90K? Sure! Yeah for the company! Yay for the stockholders! Is the economy declining because Americans are out of work? Is the company hurt in the long run because Najihapor isn't going to be buying goods at the price that an American would pay, if he even buys the companies goods at all? Hell YES.
Which is basically the whole point of most of my arguements here. You can argue all you want about "economic theory" and "market forces" but it all comes down to investing in the future. If businesses want to convert the world economy to where everyone makes a hell of a lot less money and PAYS a hell of a lot less for the companies product then in the long run they are hurting themselves. It is shortsighted and short term thinking that says screw the future I need my money today. This is exactly how our country is run with Social Security and Medicaire. Lets mortgage the shit out of the future and let our kids worry about the consequences.
Every business man and economist thinks in terms of "what can we realize in 5 mo's? not 5 years. When I worked for Honeywell they had amerger with Allied Signals. Bonaventura was elected CEO and he was fired after six months because although the stock prices had increased incrimentally it wasn't enough. Of course he realized over 40 million in stock options and bonuses (not even close to the top at the time) and lifetime services such as a company jet, office and staff etc.
If you produce a product, say a car, would you rather sell a luxury car in America for 50,000 or sell the equivalent of a K-car to someone in Asia for a couple of grand?
Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:47 pm
Noted! You SMACKER:P
Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:49 pm
holy crap, this thread has taken on a life of its own....
Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:52 pm
instead of tax cuts, this is now SMACK Cuts...
Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:55 pm
Originally posted by Pvt. Boisclair
quit trying to claim all the last responses on the front page as your own, you SMACKER
curses...foiled again!
Who do you think that I am? Buli?
...you smacker!
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:04 pm
Knock it off you smackers!
This is a serious thread! about serioues things... and stuff...and
smackers!
This is a serious thread! about serioues things... and stuff...and
smackers!
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:13 pm
Can we ship Tommy and Boisclair overseas? Would anyone want them? 
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:16 pm
I have my doubts...
Hey Boisclair, send me some pecans from Georgia...you smacker!
LOL
Hey Boisclair, send me some pecans from Georgia...you smacker!
LOL
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:20 pm
Originally posted by RCglider
I said GM, that's a whole different animal. If you want to talk skilled trades (tool and die makers, electricians, mechanics) at GM, then it's not uncommon to see 80-100k+.
Cite please. Here's what I found:
How much are current UAW auto industry wages?
As of the second quarter of 2003, a UAW-represented assembler earns $25.63 per hour of straight time. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker earns $29.75 per hour of straight time. Between 1992 and 2002, inflation-adjusted real wages for UAW-represented autoworkers increased by 13.5 percent. This is a compounded annual pay increase, after inflation, of 1.28 percent.
Take a full MD, subtract his malpractice insurance, overtime pay not covered, etc. etc. and that is the whole picture.
Doctors on salaries don't pay their own malpractice insurance.
Salaries are all-in numbers. As professionals, doctors are exempt from overtime regulations.
1. If the cost of housing is rising, and we all know it is, how can people buy them if the economy is so rotten and outsourcing has taken all these higher paying jobs?
Interest rates are at an all time low. Wait untill they come right back up.
3. Who is buying all the cars?
Interest rates are at an all time low. Wait untill they come right back up.
4. How can the GDP be rising if the economy is so bad?
GDP is the product of number of workers * productivity of workers. With the continual increase in the size of the population, and the continual advances in productivity, GDP rises. This does not mean that people, as a whole, are better off. A rising tide only lifts floating boats.
Originally posted by CM
But your observations are correct. We are not in a recession, and the unemployment indicators are not incredibly accurate -first of all they're lagged, secondly they're not accurate as they only track the people actively searching for employment.
The unemployment indicators are incredibly correct. That employment lags a recovery is true - but - but - not by 2 years. This isn't a lag, it's a jobless recovery. The unemployment figure of 5-6% only tracks people looking for work, but the payroll numbers track the number of jobs, and they are just not coming up like one would hope.
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:29 pm
I think they're hoping you just go away Boisclair.
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:59 pm
It's the smell of cabbage. Shower more often.
Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:01 pm
Originally posted by FarginMofo
Rc, one word answers at least a couple of your questions - Debt.
Lets see (brief review of stats from posted article)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A10011-2004Jan12?language=printer
-- Americans topped 2 trillion dollars in debt for first time.
-- 2003 saw 1.6 million households file bankruptcy
-- average of $9000 in household consumer debt
IT jobs in themselves are not special. The same is happening in the engineering field, the accounting field, finance, etc, etc. Two things they all have in common are 1) high pay and 2) you usually have to earn a 4 year degree to hold down one of these positions, sometimes more. IMO, the more these types of jobs leave, the worse it is.
Why do people get into debt and what for? I know a few people that filed bankruptcy, but they got foolish and ran up a $50k credit card debt on a $100k+ income. Dum.
BTW, there's going to be a very high demand for engineers in the near future.
Accountants are mostly dead weight overhead as far as I'm concerned. The fewer of them the better. I've never liked bean counters because most I've dealt with (CFO's) can't see past their nose when it comes to capital expenditures.
Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:41 pm
Originally posted by RCglider
Why do people get into debt and what for?
People often get into revolving debt to bridge gaps in employment.
Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:42 pm
Why? I think its because a lot of people 1) live beyond their current means and 2) don't save. So when the rug gets pulled out from under them the sh*t hits the fan.
A lot of the people buying the expensive cars, homes, items of all sorts are living paycheck to paycheck. Sure, low interest rates makes it easier for people to finance items but the bottom line is the same - It is still debt. So, when the paychecks stop rolling in on a regular basis or aren't as much as they used to be, then thats when things get ugly.
A lot of the people buying the expensive cars, homes, items of all sorts are living paycheck to paycheck. Sure, low interest rates makes it easier for people to finance items but the bottom line is the same - It is still debt. So, when the paychecks stop rolling in on a regular basis or aren't as much as they used to be, then thats when things get ugly.