UN on Feb. 5th

[Doug the Unforgiven]

Ralph, I couldn't get that link to take me anywhere. Can you try it again?

[COL.BUKKAKE]

Sorry Doug I dont find anything the French say amusing

[Doug the Unforgiven]

I think it's an heavy price for improving Bush popularity in US and give you a little more oil and a poor revenge after Ben Laden humiliated you, even though so far there has been no evidence linking the Iraqi regime to the terrorist operations in New York and Washington ?

I agree with the Colonel that "humiliated" is a poor-ass way to describe what happened to NY and DC. I already said my piece about the rest of the garbage...

[Doug the Unforgiven]

Originally posted by COL.BUKKAKE
Sorry Doug I dont find anything the French say amusing

No problem, I'm just trying too hard to be a diplomat (my nice-guy crap trying to break through), however futile.

I'm definitely on your side on this one.

The useless/impotent French would soon be begging for our help, if not for the impending actions of the US and its brave allies. And they would be blaming us for not having done something before it was too late.

Denying Turkey NATO defense planning? WTF?? That should tell us all we need to know about our so-called "friends". If I had any respect for France or Germany's opposition, it was all lost with that shitty maneuver. They have no credibility. Nor do they have any respect for the the very alliance that was designed to protect THEM.

Thanks a lot, to Clinton, for fucking up NATO (actions in Bosnia)...more fodder for his corrosive legacy.

[Caepolla]

Originally posted by COL.BUKKAKE

Originally posted by Caepolla
You call 3,000 dead humiliation......you sick twisted French fuck..................The thing you have to ask yourself, is what does your socalled country have to gain by keeping Hussein in power, what are the French and Germans hiding......Maybe the fact they supply Iraq with materials to make the weapons we are trying to stop. You can say your a liberal nation, a passive one, but that gets you so far. The steps the French are taking to stop whats inevitable, goes wya beyond liberalism........If your shit scared of the 6,000,000 muslims living in France, well you proved your point that you dont want war, so I dont think there will be some sort of uprising. I think whatever is causing France to bust the ballsof the very nation that saved its ass, is something more sinister than merely being pussies.

BTW not only americans but few french people died in Twin towers too. You missed my point. This terrorist attack was horrible. But from here, it looks like your governement want to stirke Saddam Hussein to hide its inability to take Ben Laden. I wish Hussein dead, but a war like the first Gulf war will just kill a lot of innocent civilians (who are as innocent as the people who were in the Twin towers). And Laden is still free.
I can't speak for my government. He may hide a lot of things, like yours. I speak for myself : I have nothing to hide, I'm not scared by the muslims in France (LOL, I guess you never came here. Sure, we suffered some terrorist attacks too but we live peacefully with most of them. My neighboors on the upper floor are muslims and great friends. Only few french muslims are bloody fanatics), I have no financial interest in Iraqi, I have no blood on my hands, I wish the peace, and I'm not a coward and will fight if necessary but only if nothing else is possible. That's all.
You don't need to insult me cause you think different.

Nevertheless you are right : humiliated was a wrong word. But please, don't forget english is my third langage, I wouldn't use such a word if I spoke in french.

Originally posted by Doug the Unforgiven
Your first two paragraphs (European attitudes, etc.) are at least enlightening. I think the whole thing is funny when not taken seriously. I make fun of everybody, including Americans. Come up with some good US jokes and I'll be the first to laugh. I admitted in another thread to growing up in Arkansas. So I get lots of guff about hillbillies and rednecks. All in good fun.

I'm used to chat with american people (thanks to Internet) and I even lived a time in Florida. I don't care about jokes on french people. I think they are funny. And most american laugh with our jokes on you. No problems when it's just humor, even stupid humor like this incoming (in France) movie :http://www.moviecentre.net/movies/s/slaphershesfrench/
I just thought it wasn't humor in this thread but prejudices (I hope it's the right word).

[i]Originally posted by Doug the Unforgiven

It doesn't matter what the US does, they hate us anyway. If the West did nothing, the Mideast would hate us just as much (if not more) for "not caring" about them. There are plenty in that region who are begging for help, but their cries are silenced by madmen like Hussein.

[...]
Your last big paragraph just looks like a recitation of textbook liberal propaganda (American or otherwise). If you actually believe that nonsense, well...you're entitled to your opinion. Looking for peace at all costs certainly can cost lives. Think Neville Chamberlain ("peace in our time").

Yes but Saddam in 2003 isn't really Hitler. I agree for the european attitude toward Hitler : it was a cowardly mistake, cause we could have stop him earlier.
Saddam Hussein was a danger in 1991, and France fought with you during the first Gulf war.
But do you really think Hussein is still a military danger in 2003 ? I may be wrong, but i don't think. I have more fears about North Korea.

[i]Originally posted by Doug the Unforgiven
[I]Don't worry about your English. We have many here that can't speak it as well as you seem to and we understand them just fine. Hell, some of the Americans here are harder to understand.

Good day to you:D

Thanks and good day to you too.

[Caepolla]

Just on this point :

Originally posted by Doug the Unforgiven
Denying Turkey NATO defense planning? WTF?? That should tell us all we need to know about our so-called "friends". If I had any respect for France or Germany's opposition, it was all lost with that shitty maneuver. They have no credibility. Nor do they have any respect for the the very alliance that was designed to protect THEM.

Do you really think Turkey is in danger ? Iraqi isn't really a military power after its defeat in 1991. And how could Iraqi have rebuilt its strength with the embargo ? And why Iraqi would start a war by attacking this country ? Hussein would be mad to effectively attack Turkey cause NATO would help the country to defend, even France, Belgium or Germany.

Anyway, it would be more logical for Hussein to strike Israel, then he could hope from arab people support (especially if Israel strikes back).
Furthermore, Turkey has interests in the War cause it could help to solve the Kurds problem and give it some extra territory to the south-east. Asking for help at this time is just diplomatic manoeuver in war favor, I don't think they really need it if US don't attack Iraqi. And we are back to the first problem : should USA attack Iraqi ?

[Doug the Unforgiven]

North Korea was already dealt with in a peaceful fashion. What happened? The US under Clinton never seriously followed up, N. Korea broke the agreement, and now we're in this situation. They have their nukes and now must be dealt with. So what's the solution? Do we go ahead and let Hussein get nukes, also? This all has to be taken a step at a time. Not even the mighty US can be everywhere.

Peaceful solutions are a huge responsibility. They must be taken seriously to work. Unfortunately that usually involves bloodshed. No lasting peace has ever been achieved by holding hands with a brutal state. Whether or not Hussein is another Hitler, I would have thought this to be a point that France understood.

[Doug the Unforgiven]

It was only a request for defense PLANNING.
"We'll help you plan your defense when it's too late." --pretty short-sighted.

If Hussein attacks Israel and gets other Arab nations into the fight, you better believe that Turkey would be in trouble.

Don't underestimate the desparation of a madman who knows his time is up...

[Caepolla]

Originally posted by Doug the Unforgiven
North Korea was already dealt with in a peaceful fashion. What happened? The US under Clinton never seriously followed up, N. Korea broke the agreement, and now we're in this situation. They have their nukes and now must be dealt with. So what's the solution? Do we go ahead and let Hussein get nukes, also? This all has to be taken a step at a time. Not even the mighty US can be everywhere.

Peaceful solutions are a huge responsibility. They must be taken seriously to work. Unfortunately that usually involves bloodshed. No lasting peace has ever been achieved by holding hands with a brutal state. Whether or not Hussein is another Hitler, I would have thought this to be a point that France understood.

I never said there are always peaceful solutions. Sometimes war is unavoidable. It was in 1939 (and even in 1938). May be it is for North Korea. I just doubt it is for Iraqi. I may be wrong on this last point. I just think war should be the last resort, when peace is worst than war.

BTW, if you don't mind I stop the thread here. We are humble citizens, we won't change anything in our governement attitude for this crisis, and I think we already said most of we wanted to say.

[Kristov Profile ICQ]

Good points Caepolla, and it just shows that my warning about insulting general groups here isn't a good idea.

I'll have to disagree with you concerning North Korea being a bigger world threat then Saddam Hussein though. N Korea wants to use it's nuclear ability to get the US to treat them like a superpower, they want direct negioations between themselves and the US, NOT via the S Koreans, which they feel makes them out to be a 'lesser' power and therefore without honor or respect. I know, twisted and convoluted and rather fucked up mentality, but it's how they think. These things mean more to them, honor and respect, then they do to most of the western world's mindset, enough that they would actually nuke themselves and S Korea to save face.

Saddam, he wants power, pure and simple, and he'll do whatever he feels he has to in order to consolidate what he has and to gain more. He puts his military where civilians are ON PURPOSE, to use his own populace as a shield. Schools, mosques, hospitals, these are the places he thinks his military should establish their bases at. What's that say about this man who controls an entire nation with weapons of mass destructive and a PROVEN drive to take what's not his? France's intel agencies deny that the proof the US has given about Saddam's hidden weapons programs is real, and oddly enough, some of that proof shows connections to people known to be living in France. Seems a bit odd that France would deny a known and widely recognized terrorist actually IS such, but they are doing just that. Why?

Caepolla, maybe you should be questioning why your own government is so opposed to simply making Saddam adhere to the UN agreement he agreed to over a decade ago. They've not once pushed for him to do what he agreed to do, and they've made excuses for him time and again over the past decade. Why Caepolla? It's your government, supposedly liberal and open and friendly, so, what's the deal? Why allow Saddam to kill over a million of his own people over the last decade by NOT allowing the medication and food the UN has given to Iraq to go to the PEOPLE, instead it's given to the MILITARY, the ones the UN is trying to punish. Ah, didn't publish that little part of the equation did you? Or, perhaps, you weren't aware of it? Yes, food and meds have been sent to Iraq, and those supplies are being taken by the military and withheld from the very people they were meant for. Then it's turned around by Iraq and WE'RE the ones starving the people there, NOT the government, oh no, they aren't the ones responsible for the deaths of their own people...

Buy into the bs if you wish to Caepolla, but remember, it's actions like the French government's that are condoning the deaths of those innocent people, not the actions of the US government.

[Doug the Unforgiven]

Well said, Kristov.

[Caepolla]

Originally posted by Kristov

Buy into the bs if you wish to Caepolla, but remember, it's actions like the French government's that are condoning the deaths of those innocent people, not the actions of the US government.

I hope you won't mind if i quote only the end of your post. Please : i'm not buying into the bs (bullshit?).
I hope we can agree on these two points. First, neither France nor USA is the main responsable of these deaths but Hussein himself. Second, the best solution is the one which allows to save most people.
Then I hope we just disagree only on what this best solution is for this particular affair. Sure, one of us is wrong, but we deal with the informations we have (we don't work in intelligence agencies) and I think we both have good intentions.

P.S. : I don't know how you see France from USA (well I saw a little in this thread :p), but I can ensure you that terrorist menace is taken very seriously here. And everyone knows that a new terrorist wave could strike us.

P.P.S. : I don't agree with eveything my government does. And for example, it's a shame (but I fear the word is too light) that we simply making Saddam execute now to the UN agreement he agreed to over a decade ago. Thanks to the US for that .

[Kristov Profile ICQ]

Caepolla, our words, thoughts and ideas may or may not hold any sway with our government, but they hold sway with ourselves.

I'll have to explain to my own children someday exactly what's going on right now in the world, because it's the world they'll inherit. I want to be able to look at them and tell them that I stood against humans like Hussein and Bin Ladden and that I did my best to help remove the threat they represented from the world. And I'll have to explain WHY I did that. My kids have already learned that just because someone says something is so, that doesn't mean they are right, always question, always seek the truth yourself. I taught them that, as I was taught it, because you can't make choices based upon false information and expect to make a good one.

Via these forums, we exchange thoughts and ideas and we challenge each other to prove ourselves and our convictions. That is the purpose of debating after all, to challenge and be challenged, to prove or disprove, and to further the quest for the truth, not accept blindly what we're told.

[Doug the Unforgiven]

Originally posted by Kristov
Caepolla, our words, thoughts and ideas may or may not hold any sway with our government, but they hold sway with ourselves.

I'll have to explain to my own children someday exactly what's going on right now in the world, because it's the world they'll inherit. I want to be able to look at them and tell them that I stood against humans like Hussein and Bin Ladden and that I did my best to help remove the threat they represented from the world. And I'll have to explain WHY I did that. My kids have already learned that just because someone says something is so, that doesn't mean they are right, always question, always seek the truth yourself. I taught them that, as I was taught it, because you can't make choices based upon false information and expect to make a good one.

Via these forums, we exchange thoughts and ideas and we challenge each other to prove ourselves and our convictions. That is the purpose of debating after all, to challenge and be challenged, to prove or disprove, and to further the quest for the truth, not accept blindly what we're told.

Very profound. Almost brings a tear...

[Caepolla]

Oh didn't I say i wanted to stop to post here ? Nevermind then.

I fully agree with your last message. What you want to do with your children, my grand father did with me.
Do you remember the movie Saving Private Ryan, when the mother understand she lost her son ? This scene happened for almost every european family during WWI and WWII. Every french city has his own memorial with the names of every inhabitants died while fighting in WWI or WWII : you can easily see more than 100 names for a 1.000 inhabitants town (because people from the same town were often in the same units, and when the unit suffered heavy casualties...)
Sure WWII was war againt nazism. But WWI ? It's just a matter of nationalism. People died for nothing.

Like you, I think, I want a world of peace and justice, and I want to be able to say to my own children that I helped to build such a world. But I don't forget my grand father : don't do to other people what we suffered. I'm not an idealist blind to the reality or coward afraid to die (everyone die a day anyway).

Then sure i'm against Hussein and his fellows, but not innocent irakians.



P.S. : but on boards we can only speak about our convictions. I think that most important is what we really do.