Song of the Season

Originally posted by -HaVoC-
Did we or did we not rebuild Germany? We did.

Did we or did we not save Europe from utter annialation? We did?

we didn't take over these country's and plunder them. We gave them back to the people and helped them rebuild.

Very good points.

[-HaVoC-]

Originally posted by RCinator
One key difference between then and now is UN support. Had it then, don't yet have it now.

So true.

I am tired of the debate over this issue to be honest. It's just the whole anit-american sentiment that bleeds out of Hollywood and eminates throughout this country that boils my blood.

If you have issues with your leaders policies that's fine. Protest and speak out against those policies. but to make signs and posters depicting your elected President as Satan and other things is IMHO treasonist.

[Allister Fiend]

This thread should have started in the smoking room to begin with, an admin should know that.

Was it funny? yes, I heard a similar song back when Clinton was president.

Two things I have noticed about 90% of the people protesting this current situation.
1. Most people are anti-President Bush to begin with, and this is a way for most of them to speak out against him.
2. If protesters REALLY wanted a PEACEFUL solution and less INNOCENT deaths they would be marching with signs that critized Saddam Hussein and asking him to abide by the U.N. resolutions, instead, they show HIM support and make him even more determined to dig in for the long haul. If we would have stuck together he would have probably left by now. (once again, we see the brillance of liberal protesters)

Check this video out...it's kinda long and takes a few minutes to load.

http://brain-terminal.com/articles/video/peace-protest.html

Good Job Havoc, Farginmofo, Ralph Wiggum and Freedom

Originally posted by RCinator

I'm not anti-war by any means and I do believe that we need to do something about Saddam. I also believe there will be a time when war is the last remaining option, I just do not think that the time is now - it should be put off as long as possible to allow for that small chance that things can be brought to a peacefull resolution.


"Hussein will be given 'a last chance to comply before he gets clobbered,' The New York Times on Monday quoted an unidentified U.S. official as saying."--CNN.com, Jan. 27, 1998

"Annan Admits Iraq Trip Could Be Last Chance for Peace"--CNN.com, Feb. 18, 1998

"Clinton: Iraq Has Abused Its Last Chance"--CNN.com, Dec. 16, 1998

"The White House suggested Wednesday that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein has missed his 'last chance' to disarm."--CNN.com, Dec. 18, 2002

"Future European Union members endorsed a joint declaration Tuesday warning Saddam Hussein he has one last chance to disarm."--Associated Press, Feb. 18, 2003

Now .. what’s this “rush to war” nonsense?

(*** yes, lets give him 12 more years, I mean, look how much cooperation he has givin us so far (sarcasm by the way), ***)

Originally posted by FLOPPY
I only know only one country that used atom bombs on people. And for my opinion, that is as horrible as using chemical weapons. It might have been the enemy back then, but it were still people.

Originally posted by FLOPPY
Well, with the nukes dropped it were only the million Japanese that died, but that is probably not so terrible for you, right Ralph? You dont have to live in a country full of radiation.
Here it is proved again that there are no real winners in a war. Same thing in Iraq. Better thing is to find a peacefull solution first , and then a aggressive one. And that "sympathy for Saddam" isnt really sympathy for that man, but just that little sane voice in their head that says: AVOID WAR.

In times of war I would much rather lose 1 million of my enemy than 1 million of my own.

As for their being no winners in a war, how can you say that, the mere fact that we are here today having an open discussion and people are in the streets calling their leaders every name in the book is proof that thier are winners in a war.


On closing, I would like to add another link that will give another reason to get rid of saddam hussien.

This is for all the appeasers out there who say by attacking iraq only innocent live will be lost, ***newsflash, innocent lives are being lost every day in iraq right now!***

WARNING...these pictures are very disturbing!

http://www.krg.org/reference/halabja/index.asp#
(after entering web page, go to "Pictures tell the story: Slide Show ")

Originally posted by RCinator
One key difference between then and now is UN support. Had it then, don't yet have it now.

Funny how we did not need support from the U.N. when clinton and NATO decided to go into Kosovo, or how no one is asking the U.N. to step in and handle Korea, (no, the U.S. should handle that alone.)


Allister Fiend

[i]I am tired of the debate over this issue to be honest. It's just the whole anit-american sentiment that bleeds out of Hollywood and eminates throughout this country that boils my blood.[/B]

This issue is indeed exhausting. I believe that the anti-American sentiment is a leftist backlash to the rampant jingoism that runs in the political right. In the end, I think it helps keep the scale balanced.

For the record, I fall fairly neutral in that spectrum. I love our country, but admit its faults, plain and simple.

I didnt mean for this to turn into a political debate.

Thread moved.

<Links were here>

I think what I'm debating is more that I disagree with the "last chance". I think we have jumped the gun on the "last chance" scenario, so while the mainstream media has pretty much given in to the fact that Saddam blew it, I just don't think it's time yet. I'm not suggesting that we wait twelve more years, just a few more months, tops. When people stop talking, people start dying, and we haven't stopped talking _entirely_. The fact that Saddam even responds to our inquiries (even if he is a d!ck about it) means that there is still some small chance of further discussion. While I do not sympathize with Saddam or his supporters, I empathize with the "citizens" of Iraq that have no choice in the matter, that will become a necessary casualty of this war. And I'm not a left-wing tree hugger; I understand that this may very well require war, and I understand that death is a necesary evil in this situation.

As for anti-Bush sentiment, I think it's hard to say that most people are indeed anti-Bush. Especially when the mainstream media has pretty much supported us going to war. I mean, they LOVE war - it gives them news to report and sells papers. Also, there is a difference between disagreeing with some of Bush's policy and being anti-Bush. I fall into the former classification.

Originally posted by seigfreid
I know it is not what you are suggesting, but a similar argument has been made against doing anything about Iraq because the United States once supported him. For me, this fact should not prevent us from taking action if necessary, but instead gives us even more of a responsibility to get rid of him.



they did support him publicly, they also privately funded his enemy, the ayatolla in iran. both at same time

I believe that was so neither could win

[Sidekick Floppy]

Originally posted by Allister Fiend

Good Job Havoc, Farginmofo, Ralph Wiggum and Freedom

Well this has been a mature discussion for ALL of us. Good Job to ALL.


Anyway, just wanted to say that the USA is a great country, I surely do not hate it or anything. I just wanted to express my opinion, you know, freedom of expression

If I offended any person, accept my apologies for doing it.

Originally posted by MMmmGood
I didnt mean for this to turn into a political debate.

Thread moved.

It was a cute song, but you can't fool us.

Originally posted by FLOPPY
Well this has been a mature discussion for ALL of us. Good Job to ALL.

Ditto that. Kudos to everyone for the maturity level in this thread, despite the rampantly different points of view. You all have obviously considered this issue carefully and I respect your opinions very much.

[FarginMofo]

Your right Floppy. Germany did suffer through bad times after WWI and these economic, social, political conditions where the perfect breeding ground for a monster like him to rise up. But, don't forget that much of the rest of the world wasn't doing that great economically either. America was suffering through the great depression which was one of several reasons for its Isolationalist stance back then. This "Me first let someone else worry about it" attitude in America and Europe was a contributing factor to Hitler's rise. He didn't build his vast armies of planes, tanks, ships, and men overnight. Plus, I would find it extrtemely hard to believe that someone, at the very minimum France (being right next door), didn't know about it. Had military action been taken in the early stages of his rise, perhaps millions of lives would have been spared.

So, how does this relate to today's situation. One major difference between then and now is that you no longer need vast powerful armies to conquer or at least destroy. A few well placed missles with nuclear, biological, or chemical warheads can do the job. You don't even need missles now with terrorists willing to stop at nothing.

So, if the world does not take action now, then 60 years from now, when most of us are nothing but dirt in the ground, will our descendants look back at this time period and say what we say now of 60 years ago: "Perhaps millions would have been spared"?

Note: Floppy, I appreciate and respect your opinion(s). Isn't democracy and freedom a wonderful thing?

Oh yeah , one more thing, how does that cliche go? "If you don't learn from your mistakes your bound to repeat them?" The world learned its lesson back in 1945. I haven't kept up with the economic times in Japan and Germany but at least until late I think it would be safe to say that they have been 2 of the most prosperous nations since then.

[-HaVoC-]

Originally posted by FLOPPY
Well this has been a mature discussion for ALL of us. Good Job to ALL.


Anyway, just wanted to say that the USA is a great country, I surely do not hate it or anything. I just wanted to express my opinion, you know, freedom of expression

If I offended any person, accept my apologies for doing it.

None taken

Man the love between you BF1942 guys is amazin........Nothing at all like the burning hatred you see amongst RTCW players, all of you have touched me deeply. Now lets all get together and have sex:D

[-HaVoC-]

A quote from the pages Allister posted.

This page is dedicated to the people of Halabja who on March 16th, 1988 suffered the worst chemical attacks committed by Iraqi regime. On that day, 5,000 innocent civilians immediately perished.

The gases used included mustard gas, nerve agents sarin, tabun and VX. This was the largest chemical attack on a civilian population ever.


During those three days, the town and the surrounding district were unmercifully attacked with bombs, artillery fire, and chemicals. The chemical weapons were the most destructive of life. The chemicals used included mustard gas and the nerve agents sarin, tabun, and VX. At least 5,000 people died immediately as a result of the chemical attack and it is estimated that up to 12,000 people in all died during the course of those three days.

Completely unmerciful and disturbing. Pre-emptive chemical attacks by Saddam on innocent men, women and children.

And to think I just sat down to a delicious meal with my family. One package in any one of millions of cargo containers entering every day into America and my meal may have ended differently.

Good stuff Allister. Knowledge is power.

[Allister Fiend]

Originally posted by FLOPPY
Well this has been a mature discussion for ALL of us. Good Job to ALL.


Anyway, just wanted to say that the USA is a great country, I surely do not hate it or anything. I just wanted to express my opinion, you know, freedom of expression

If I offended any person, accept my apologies for doing it.

No need to apologize, we all have our opinions.



Thanks for the kudos Havoc.


Allister Fiend