Read with Caution

[Bagginses]

I think WWII has pretty much proven that the United States will never ever be able to go back to being isolationist. Anything that happens anywhere in the world will have an effect on us some how.

-Bagginses

[-HaVoC- Profile]

true, I still wish savage would respond. He stated that it's not jealousy of our prosperity. I am dying to know what Europe thinks of us.

I have personally traveled to London and Edinburgh Scotland on business and met many folks. We had some great conversations and none were negative. But I do get the general impression were disliked. That might just be due to the media that pours through my TV set though.

[Irish]

Nope. Was in Ireland. Europe hates us. I remember one coversation with a nice blonde that had an ass like......well back to the topic. She felt that Tony Blair was Bush's bitch. She was from England just on Holiday in Ireland. But the Irish weren't to friendly either with Americans in general. I only had one blow up in a club. Got called a foreign C%%% while I was standing at a urinal. The group I like the best were the Germans and Dutch. They seemed pretty open minded just to take you as you are and let the drinks bring out the real you.

[Bagginses]

I think US sentiment depends alot on where you go and who you talk to. I'm sure if you walk into an Irish bar or a French restaurant, I'm sure you'll get some negative responses. Alot of Americans say when they go abroad they tell people they're Canadian, but I find that just causes more problems because then you're basing your whole relationship with those people on lies and you're just falling right in to the American stereotype.

A friend of mine went to study for a semester in Germany and initially he started telling people he was from Canada, but then they'd ask him what part, what are the laws like, etc. He realized that he didn't like lying all the time so he just dealt with the crap and told people he was American. But you have to keep in mind, that foreigners assuming that all Americans are pretentious A-holes is just as bad as us assuming that all Muslims are fanatical radicals.

-Bagginses

[Murgatroyd]

I find it ironic that alot of Europeans thoroughly dislike us, who are in alot of cases, the 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation since our families moved from Europe!

Yes, Americans are pretentious pricks, much in the same way that the Irish are drunkards, the French are cowards, the English like tea and crumpetts, the Dutch wear wooden shoes and live in windmills, and the Germans dress in all black and listen to techno music. Stereotypes.

Myself, I'm 2nd generation American. My great-grandfather fought (and died) in WWI for the Russians. My other great-grandparents came over from Ireland. 1/2 of my grandparents were first generation born in America, one was an immigrant herself (from Lithuania), and the other I have very little knowledge of, but I hear that he was 1st generation, his father being an immigrant from Scotland.

Not to change the subject, but for Europeans (or Russians) to dislike me for being an American, it's quite humorous, because I'm not all that far removed from them, I was just born in another country. Just goes to show...

[Jeffro Profile YIM]

Originally posted by Murgatroyd
I find it ironic that alot of Europeans thoroughly dislike us, who are in alot of cases, the 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation since our families moved from Europe!

Yes, Americans are pretentious pricks, much in the same way that the Irish are drunkards, the French are cowards, the English like tea and crumpetts, the Dutch wear wooden shoes and live in windmills, and the Germans dress in all black and listen to techno music. Stereotypes.

Myself, I'm 2nd generation American. My great-grandfather fought (and died) in WWI for the Russians. My other great-grandparents came over from Ireland. 1/2 of my grandparents were first generation born in America, one was an immigrant herself (from Lithuania), and the other I have very little knowledge of, but I hear that he was 1st generation, his father being an immigrant from Scotland.

Not to change the subject, but for Europeans (or Russians) to dislike me for being an American, it's quite humorous, because I'm not all that far removed from them, I was just born in another country. Just goes to show...

Hey...I am half-german and listen to techno!




Anyway...my grandfather faught against japan in the alutens...

I also had a relative who was SS in germany...

Funny how they were indirectly fighting each other

I could type much more, but it would be verbose and not to the point

[PudriK Profile]

I seriously doubt jealousy has anything to do with it. It's like those people who say they want to kill us because they hate that we are free! Pshaw!!

They hate us because we are trying to push our freedoms on them. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't, but lets get real. Those guys didn't fly into the WTC because they want to eliminate 3000 free Americans. They did so to make a point to get us out of the Middle East. They want to kill us because their children want to wear blue jeans, and listen to rock'n'roll, and because we prop up Israel, and push the idea of multiple relgions, etc. They hate that our culture's values are spreading into theirs.

It's like us and communism... we didn't hate and fear the Russians because they were communist, we hated and feared them because we didn't want communism to spread to us our or neighboors.

Unfortunately for them, we have too much economic interest in their oil, and no matter what, our values and culture are going to "ruin" their children's minds. So they are fighting a losing battle. I don't forsee anyway to appease them. Perhaps there are ways to mitigate it, though. For example, if we didn't meddle in their Governments for our own interests. But sometimes you have to do it---terrorism is just the price you pay for real politik.

In my experience, I was treated well in England and Europe, but that was five years ago. A cousin who does a lot more foreign travel than me, incl. France, tells me that what foreigers resent is not so much individual Americans, but the actions of our government. But she's a liberal and a francophile, so I don't imagine she puts up much of a fight when they start complaining.

Anyway, there's no way around that problem... people, and governments, will always resent the top dog, and right now, we're it. No matter how much money we give them, they will still resent us because, by our shear size and power, we have more influence in world affairs.

As for closing our borders... I can think of no faster way to ensure the poverty of every American than trying to be an island nation.

[SavageParrot Profile]

I don't hate americans and I did support the war in Iraq I just feel that without the support of the Us early in his career Saddam would never have grown to the problem that he became. The us has always had a policy of supporting the worst kind of regimes for economic purposes, Saddam, Pinochet etc.. as has the UK and yet neither of us blame this gross interference in national politics for the long term damage this policy causes. If the Us maintained one standpoint I would admire them but they are prepared to support any kind of evil when it benefits them and yet use it as an excuse to later interfere elsewhere. I really feel you could be a force for good if you break the yolk of your larger corporations and practice what you preach for a change.

Rest assured though it is the policies and not the people I hate, otherwise I wouldn't be here talking to you all.

[Murgatroyd]

Originally posted by SavageParrot
I don't hate americans and I did support the war in Iraq I just feel that without the support of the Us early in his career Saddam would never have grown to the problem that he became.

Glad someone finally brought that up. I try to explain to people how bad we screwed Saddam in the Iran/Iraq war, and they just don't get it. He was our ally previous to that, and in fact he attacked Iran because we asked him to. Then we did the worst thing possible, we created a protracted, bloody war in order to keep them both in conflict with one another by playing both sides. We provided Saddam with intel, and we provided the Iranians with weapons. Worst.. political move... ever..

But you're right, the US does have some seriously screwed up foreign policy. Like supporting Israel, for instance. I don't agree with what Israel is doing. They're putting the Palestinians in ghettos and "camps". However, the Palestinians almost justify the Israeli's actions with bombings. It's a terrible, terrible situation with no easy solution. Then you get the third parties, like Lebanon, Iran, and various other arab states who encourage the Palistinians to use violence to try and remedy the situation, and countries like the US that supports Israel and their outlandish policies. If I were in charge, I'd do a whole helluva lot more to resolve this problem than our administration is doing now. I also would have stepped in for Rwanda. Fastest genocide in human history, and alot of people still don't know that it even happened!

The US has done some screwed up things in the past, but so has Great Britain, Germany, Russia, France, Iraq, Iran, etc. etc.

The US has also done some wonderful things - Milosevic, Hitler, Mussolini - none of them have jobs anymore because of the United States and it's allies.

[SavageParrot Profile]

Originally posted by Murgatroyd
The US has also done some wonderful things - Milosevic, Hitler, Mussolini - none of them have jobs anymore because of the United States and it's allies.

Yes but Hitler had to declare war on you before you joined in and Milosevic was dealt with quickely because of international pressure from a collective guilt about the way we all handled the earlier war in Bosnia. You are right though you did screw the pooch in the Iran/Iraq war and you have kicked some righteos ass in the past.

[Murgatroyd]

But, regardless of our foreign policy, I think we'd still be in the same, if not very similar position. These people, the radical islamic factions, just use our actions to justify their actions, which have no purpose but to enslave the world under wahabist islam.

Whether my freedom is imaginary or not, I prefer this to any form of wahabism. Though the christians try and force their morality upon me, at least I can resist. If these muslims had their way, they'd force their morality upon me, and if I even attempted to resist, I'd be killed. That's the difference, and I'm quite willing to die for it.

They pump out oodles and oodles of propaganda. If it wasn't palestine, it would be some other 'injustice' that the US had indirectly inflicted upon them. Just look at the message released today, offering Europe "peace". Hitler offered Europe peace too, remember. Chamberlain gave Hitler what he wanted, and still there was war. The same goes for Bin Ladin. We already know what happens when you appease someone who wants the world for themselves. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen again.

[RCglider Profile]

Originally posted by -HaVoC-

No matter what the policies are of any nation or group, The ways of terrorism will not solve their problems or allow their voice to be heard. They need to come to that realization.

Well, look what happened in Spain's election, and now Bin Laden is trying to affect policy in all of Europe and the U.S. with his "peace" offering.

The question is, do we have the will in this country to finish the job. I'm not so sure we do.

The U.N. is a total failure and utterly corrupt whose goal is to render the U.S. under it's control.

May I suggest be learned in history concerning things like the Palestinians. I know Havoc doesn't want this thread in that direction, but it's interesting most have no idea what the truth is about that subject. In a nutshell:

Palestine has never existed...as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today...No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.

The money we've given "Palestinians" has been used by Aafat for his terrorist activities. They have no special claim to any land. It's a used as a tool by the Arabs to convince the world Israel somehow is responsible for their plight. It is an Arab problem, caused by Arabs and sadly the people are being used by Arabs to further their agenda. Palestine has never been ruled by Arabs as a separate nation.

Those are the facts.

[Irish]

After all is said and done.

Who owns the moon?

[Colonel Ingus Profile]

I would seriously question your information concerning the Iran-Iraq war. A lot of the information people cite there is created out of whole cloth by the media. For instance the infamous "We supplied Iraq with CBR during the Iran-Iraq War" has been disproven time and time again. Yet I still here it brought up.

I have a hard time believing Hussein instigated the war for the US. Not trying to give you a hard time I would just like to see some supporting info. I know we supplied the Iranians thanks to the Iran-Contra affair (Way to go Ollie!) but there is so much misinformation being thrown around today that I would question the rest.


And while by no means excusing any behavior there was a lot of supporting regimes that today we would find questionable. Don't forget the Cold War.

The thing I fear the most is Spain. Because of their basic capitulation they have shown the terrorists they do have power and can have an effect. What kind of message does this send Al Qaida? Especially during an election year here in the U.S.

[-HaVoC- Profile]

No problem rc. I found the points you made interesting. We are again at the same point we usually get to in these discussions. It boils down to information and some sites have been posted in the past concerning information and how it is obtained. It's hard to find the truth.

Now whether or not we gave the Iraqi's CBR is irrelevant. According to the world view, we did.

I think no matter what history we've seen and where we are headed we can all agree that the murder of innocent people is wrong. Until they understand that and change nothing will be resolved.